Brad J. Murray ([info]halfjack) wrote,
@ 2004-06-18 18:28:00
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YAPC 2004
Well here I am in Buffalo, New York on the last day of YAPC 2004, a grassroots Perl community conference. I was at the first two YAPCs and they were a hoot, at least in part because I finally got a chance to meet some of the crazy geeks that I met on IRC some time before. It turned out they were even more fun in real life and much nicer. So much nicer, in fact, that I became disgusted with most of their online personas, grew to despise them, and stopped talking to them forever.

I hope to find some middle ground at some point that doesn't involve a lot of hating, but it can be hard.

Anyway, because of the hate I skipped a few YAPCs and then this year I got a free trip out of work so I decided to give it a chance. Something, however, is terribly wrong.

Before I get going I want to make sure that I only offend the right people. So, it's critical to note that this year's YAPC is magnificently organized. Everything is going like clockwork, the facilities are great, and in general I am very happy about the infrastructure that made this YAPC happen. Kudos to the organizing folks here. The problem with this YAPC is that it is missing its leadership.

At prior YAPCs we had Larry Wall here. We had Mark Jason Dominus and Randal Schwartz doing tutorials. We had current pumpkings talking about the ongoing work and the future direction. We had Damian Conway doing the occasional comic relief but more importantly being constantly present and driving discussion that wouldn't otherwise occur. We had hard-core perl core developers talking about what's happening. We had several people from ActiveState talking about how the windows port was developing. We had Sean Burke talking about his latest Perl-related fetishes. We had Kevin Lenzo, the founder (where the hell is Kevin these days?) And we had an enormous presence from IRC to keep the social content high.

This year we have dick. Not even Dick, but rather dick.

There are the usual small talks from amateur speakers about occasionally amusing things, and those talks are crucial to a conference like this as that's what it's supposed to be about, but the lack of real firepower makes it feel a little headless around here. The tutorials that exist are weak and in some cases flat out wrong and leave me feel like I'm in a bad Perl help channel trying not to cry real tears at the stupid advice being handed out to propagate bad behaviour. And there is no really nitty gritty talk about Perl with the possible exception of Abigail's regex talks which, while both nitty and gritty, I find to be such a perverse case of the language that I don't think it's useful. Certainly no one has the authority of Larry Wall or the dynamism of Dominus. This sucks.

How come this is happening? I have theories but I am just making shit up. I don't know what it is but it smells like death around here. The user community is out in force looking for information but the leadership either no longer exists or no longer cares or is simply no longer cohesive enough to be effective. My bet is on the latter.

My fear is that the whole Perl 6 endeavour has divided the community into those who work in Perl and have a genuine need to share useful information about it (and they are mostly here) and those who really know Perl inside out and want to spend their energies on the New Shiny. Unfortunately that latter group has all the enthusiasm, energy, and knowledge that we are lacking here this year. They are busy playing with new toys and are no longer interested in the old stuff that is actually getting used and that needs their energy desperately. So I'm a little more disheartened than before I came. I had hoped that while Perl 6 was shiny and amusing it would not detract from the existing Perl community but I am certain that it has. I am not coming away from this conference with anything like the renewed enthusiasm that the first two gave me.

We need you back in the community where work is getting done, folks. Shiny is nice but the community has been decapitated by your distraction.



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[info]do_not_lick
2004-06-18 09:40 am UTC (link)
Me too.

(Reply to this)


[info]earle
2004-06-18 09:43 am UTC (link)
I don't know what it is but it smells like death around here.

I thought that was Buffalo.

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Perl 6 makes my gorge rise.
[info]fimmtiu
2004-06-18 11:30 am UTC (link)
Did you ever see the periodic table of the operators? That pretty much sums up the whole problem of Perl 6 without having to say a single word.

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[info]frobisher
2004-06-19 12:17 am UTC (link)
Well, we certainly were short on the ultra-big names this year. And Perl 6 is getting a lot of attention.

But I think you've left out one major component of YAPC: Hanging out and talking. It's not all just social chatter. People often do talk about things they're working on and such - if you're not finding it elsewhere at YAPC, this is where you can get your practical/useful perl info. Of course, I'm sure you know this, but it seemed to get lost in your comments above.

Incidentally, as to the talks, I think Abigail's talk on delimited and balanced strings was pretty practical, and we may not have had Randal, but we had Tad teaching one of Randal's courses which, if we leave name recognition aside, is pretty similar.

Really, I do think you raise some important points. Perl 6 is something of a distraction for some people. Some people of note who've been doing the conference circuit for a while don't seem to be willing to travel all over the place to each conference that occurs (for many different reasons, I would think - ranging from health to just being insanely busy). It's too bad that this is the case, but I think we still have some useful stuff going on here.

I guess I don't necessarily disagree with you all that much on this; I just don't take as dim a view of it.

And I sincerely hope that, in the process of replying, I have not offended you. :-)

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[info]halfjack
2004-06-20 02:50 pm UTC (link)
I agree that as a kind of giant North American .pm meet it was fairly successful. Again, there are people I wanted to talk to that weren't there, but I had a great time on the social side. I got more real geekery talk done at my faux wedding to billn in the gazebo behind the hotel on Friday night though. That rocked. If I could trick my company into flying five cool people to Vancouver for an evening of debauchery every week and call it training, that would be better than YAPC. :)

I am, of course, unoffended! I am very pleased that others got more out of it than I did, but my last YAPC was 19100, and by comparison Buffalo was a dead loss on pretty much all fronts except quality of organization.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]frobisher
2004-06-21 02:10 pm UTC (link)
You could always take matters into your own hands and do next year's yapc yourself... [insert evil grin here]

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Re. pumpkings
(Anonymous)
2004-06-24 04:30 am UTC (link)
We had current pumpkings talking about the ongoing work and the future direction.
Maybe that is because most of the current pumpkings are in Europe. At a londom.pm technical talk they had 5 (or 6) puimpkings present. At the Nordic Perl Workshop we had 3 pumpkings...

YAPC::NA is just one of the 13-15 perl conferences this year, and will have to share with the others.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Re. pumpkings
[info]halfjack
2004-06-24 08:53 am UTC (link)
There were many failures and therefore many excuses, but the fact remains that the conference suffered because of them, and suffered badly.

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*yet another* Perl conference
(Anonymous)
2004-07-03 07:58 pm UTC (link)
Hey halfjack. This is Jeff Pinyan (japhy if you remember from IRC). You wore the orange/yellow smiley shirt at YAPC 19100, no? Anyway.

Perhaps the fate of YAPC was predicted by its name. I'm not trying to be a literalist, but after a few years, a "grassroots" conference of a group of the illuminati of Perl and whatever local and somewhat distant amateurs gather will start to become "yet another Perl conference". I went to YAPC 2001 with a co-worker, and we had fun, because I got to introduce her to "the bigwigs", and she met some cool people, and got hit on, and I had to chaperone... Then I went to TPC, and had a blast. I went on the Perl Whirl in 2003.

These were all great events because there were the users and the providers. Randal, Larry, MJD, Damian... these are the providers who bring Perl to the community. Perhaps we're forgetting that Perl 6 is a rewrite for the community, but we can't develop a language for a community we neglect. I'm sure people are busy, but are they so much busier in 2004 than they were in 1999? I hope to be the kind of Perl persona that people are glad they finally get to meet when I come to a conference they're at. These conferences are made so much more lively by being in the same room as Larry or Randal.

Maybe I'm not sure where I'm going with this, but I think the professionals are starting to weary somewhat of YAPC. And like you said, when that happens, things start to go sour and no one "big" enough is there to notice. We can't let Perl become a big city where the amateurs are homeless and the professionals are living it up at casinos every night. That's not a community. Perl is a community-oriented language, and it seems like too many important people are slipping out of the community. Replacing them isn't impossible, but it won't be the same with Tad giving Randal's talk, or some other Aussie talking in Klingon.

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[info]petdance
2004-07-15 07:00 am UTC (link)
I'm curious as to what this "leadership" should be. I get the feel a lot of it is "people whose names I know." How exactly would you like to be led? I'm looking at your examples, and, names aside, you mention tutorials, pumpking work and Perl-related fetishes. The term "nitty-gritty" is out there, although I'm not sure exactly what that means. Is it just Perl mechanics?

What sort of banner would inspire you to march under? What would make you walk away from a conference saying "That's great!"?

None of this is a challenge to your post. I'm genuinely interested, because I'm interested in what drives people in this community.

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Banners
(Anonymous)
2004-07-27 06:41 am UTC (link)
I think my biggest problem with the Perl community is my lack of involvment in it. I haven't participated a lot either in clpm, IRC, or in any of the other community forums available.

I think it just the amount of time consumed by my job and my personal life.

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